Roller Rockers + Cam

[Morry]

Gday, Theres been a bit of discussion about how well the cam and roller rockers work together. Since V6 vengeance has both, could you tell us how well they go together or if they cancel each other out?
thanks

[PINGU]

yes i would also like to know how well these work together also what price these 2 would come at.

also will i see a 40 fwkw gain if i add these items to my auto vr which has 170 000 km ( they have 130 kw stock) :-

- pacemaker headers, 2.5'' exhaust, hi flo cat and muffler
- stage 2 crow cam & the roller rockers if wort it if worth it
- mildly ported heads (how much $$$$)
- V8 throttle body
- different chip to suit mods once finished
- CAI/ K&N filter

how much are the roller rockers and do most performance shops sell al this stuff. i feel these forums are goin to very useful.
;)

[blownvn]

Wouldn't bother with the stg 2 cam but you will get a good gain with everything else.

The cam and rockers work together well enough but there was a much bigger gain from the rockers than there was from the camshaft. So if I was doing it again I would just add the rockers and leave the motor intact. If you're going for a full rebuild then get a full custom cam designed for it.

[SSRevhead]

Wouls the rockers require a retune, as i have put a V8 tb on my ute and wouldnt mind a bit more grunt, cheaply and easily, how much were they?

[Arrie18]

nd how hard too fit them?
Cheers Mate :D

[Arrie18]

Hey scott; Can i ask how much the roller rockers cost, where to get them from, any computer tune when fitted???? I have a VP V6

and how hard is it too fit them?

Cheers Mate :D

[Arrie18]

also do i need to change anything else to the engine with these?

[scarecrow420]

lol he prolly wont answer you if you steal his avatar :D

A set of Yella Terra roller rockers are around the $700 to $800 mark. You can get some from www.v6supercharged.com

Installation involves taking off the rocker covers, removing the old ones and putting the new ones in. It would be on the easier side of anything requiring you to start opening up the engine (or in this case the rocker covers)... but you obviously would need to know what you're doing... especially need to torque the bolts etc to the right setting and it's probably something best left to a mechanic.

All of our v6 engines _have_ roller rockers... it's just that the ones most people talk about have a higher ratio than stock... so they will open the valves more off the standard cam. Thus you get more valve lift off the standard cam. It basically has the same effect as putting in a new cam that gives you more lift... although obviously the higher ratio roller rockers wont alter other things a camshaft could... like duration or valve overlap etc. But it's alot cheaper and easier to just put some new rockers (since they sit right ontop of the heads, and then engine doesnt need to "come apaert" to fit them) as opposed to a camshaaft.

Like scott said, if you were only looking at a mild cam anyway... roller rockers would be a smarter investment of your $$$. But if you were totally rebuilding the engine, then you would look at getting a custom cam... and you wouldnt really just get a "mild" one... I'm planning on going for a lumpy ass MOFO :D


Bear in mind you can also get roller rockers of a standard ratio... but just made out of better materials... so if you were going a custom cam etc, and new valve springs, valves, working the heads etc, you might want to put in better/stronger roller rockers, but not actually with an increased ratio as the custom cam would already be handling that. Then there are adjustable ones, so you could regrind a cam and not have to use shims to get the correct lift (i suppose that's what the adjustables are for anyway...)

Hope some of that info helps... im pretty sure it's correct... someone will correct me if ive slipped up though ;)

[blownvn]

Not all v6's have roller rockers, they all have roller lifters.

Roller rockers are a piece of piss to fit, look for a DIY article in the mag soon.

[scarecrow420]

thanks for clearing that up... :D

so if you were to get the higher ratio rockers now... and then later down the track go for a custom cam grind, headwork etcetc... can you keep the rockers in there, and have the cam ground to suit the higher lift rockers already... or is it effectively a "waste" spending on the rockers now, if you plan on going for a custom cam etc later?

and when fitting the rockers, should we go for new/stronger valve springs at the same time?

[blownvn]

Whatever your cam is, if you fit the high ratio rockers it will effectively make the cam bigger, so it's never a waste. It's so easy to fit the rockers, I would definite go this way evrytime rather than fit a cam until I needed some real hp.

[scarecrow420]

yeah ive got a spare ecotec topend here and was mucking around with the standard rocers etc... seems definately it would be a piece of piss to fit


But like i said... when you get to the point of wanting serious HP... i assume you could keep the rockers in there, and just have the cam ground to take into account the higgher than standard lift from the rockers anyway?


Also, would the ECU be able to adjust to the greater lift and thus more air etc coming in more quickly, or is a chip remap needed to change the fuelk maps to accomodate the new lift from the rockers?

[vk2run]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by scarecrow420
It basically has the same effect as putting in a new cam that gives you more lift... although obviously the higher ratio roller rockers wont alter other things a camshaft could... like duration or valve overlap etc.

thats not totally correct because when you chand the rocker ratio it opens the valve further and thus it gets to 0.050" lift earlier and closes back to 0.050" lift later so this effectivly increases the 0.050" duration. but the advertised duration remains the same as it was.
the 50 thou duration is the main duration that engine builders take any notice to on cam specs as it is more relevant to the characteristics of the grind than advertised duration is.

[scarecrow420]

yeah i didnt think about that... so technically higher ratio roller rockers can increase the "duration" (by getting to .050 quicker and returning later)...

but would they be able to alter lobe separation or valve overlap?

[Morry]

Just like scarecrow asked, would the computer need a retune to be able to use this mod or would it adapt to it?

[blownvn]

It provides a benefit either way but more HP with a tune up

[Jonnys_VN]

Nice, So if i put Pacemaker Ext. 1.5 inch primarys, Twin hiflo cats, Lukey Muff (Im thinking of 2.5 or 3 inch Zorst Can u help on that part?) Plus CAI and K&N Filter.


What Sort of High Ratio Roller Rockers should i use?


edit-

And im getting a v8 Thottle body and dyno tuning it after all above has been done.

[blownvn]

You haven't said what car it is.

[Jonnys_VN]

Oh sorry i was tired i think

Its a VN Spack 5 speed manual

[blownvn]

Originally posted by Holden_Boy186
Nice, So if i put Pacemaker Ext. 1.5 inch primarys, Twin hiflo cats, Lukey Muff (Im thinking of 2.5 or 3 inch Zorst Can u help on that part?) Plus CAI and K&N Filter.


What Sort of High Ratio Roller Rockers should i use?


edit-

And im getting a v8 Thottle body and dyno tuning it after all above has been done.

Either the 1.5" or 1.625" pacemakers will serve you well and a twin cat system with single 3-inch exhaust is the go back further. Yella Terra is the only one to make hi-ratio rockers for your application. A V8 TB and tune will certainly help as well. Don't forget to change the diff gears.

[scarecrow420]

isn't the general consensus that a 3 inch exhaust is too big for a v6 unless it's pumping some fairly decent power (ie cam/headwork done)?

[Jonnys_VN]

Ok what diff Gears u reckon? 3.9:1, i dont want it to over rev on the hway.


And if found some 1.9:1 Ratio rockers for $895

Would i have to do any work to the motor to fit these as i said im getting a custom chip after all this is done

[scarecrow420]

you can get yellaterra roller rockers from www.vpw.com.au for $530

They arent 1.9 ratio, but they are still higher than stock. Im not sure whether to go with those ones, or the ones from FIT (not sure who makes those ones either but i didnt think they were yellaterra).


With the diff gears, dot forget that your speedo will be out (quite considerably with 3.9's) so you would need to get it recalibrated etc, which is around $300 so i heard.

[Terrible One]

$300 is alot to pay...I'm pretty sure you just get a new gear thing for the speedo cable to the gearbox, Holden has alot of different ratios and I think they are only a few dollars each. Putting it in is a 5 minute job.

[blownvn]

Go for 3.45's or 3.7's if you're concerned about revs.

the 1.9:1 ratio rockers are for the ecotec engine not the vN engine, and 3-inch isn't too big in my opinion

[Arrie18]

1.65:1 ratio Yella Terra roller rocker kit.

Series 2 VN-VR require guide plates & hardened push rods (standard on VN Series 1).

$695.00

How would that be scott???
performance wise?
Would it be enough lift for some good performance?
how much extra for guide plates and hardened push rods?

[scarecrow420]

isnt 1.65 the standard ratio anyway?

Check out the link i gave above to VPW - theyve got some 1.8 YellaTerra ones for buick engines for $530


I have another question - would you need new/better valve springs when running these rockers, or can you use your standard ones?

[blownvn]

Because we're dealing with the VN engine here I'm only giving specs in relation to it. the stock VN rocker ratio is 1.65, the high ratio rockers for the VN are 1.72. You need to buy the correct rockers for your model otherwise you will be up shit creek.

[scarecrow420]

sorry i did not mean to be misleading... this is the 3 models that are on the VPW website. Where the top one says buick i thought that they meant that would suit VN, but yes you should go for the bottom ones since they explicitly say VN-VP


YT-ST2013 GM 3.8 ECOTECH V6 & STD, Holden, Chev, Pontiac and Buick, 1.8:1 Ratio $529.95


YT-ST2017 VR-VS Series 1, 1.7:1 Ratio $529.95


YT-ST2016 VN-VP, 1.7:1 Ratio $529.95



blownvn - any thoughts on valve springs?

[Morry]

Hmm, the more I read about these, the more I want a set! If only money grew on trees!

[[TUFFVQ]]

in regards to the speed being out, i made up a set of dials to suit one of the forum members with 3.9 gears, so he had a nice set of dials and his speed problem sorted out.

looked wierd to see the speedo only go up to 160 though! :p

[Arrie18]

what would you recommand for my VP v6?
I have a toyota blowers runs 8psi and full exhuast mods, intercooler, ect ect....
1.7:1
or
1.8:1???

[blownvn]

Originally posted by scarecrow420
sorry i did not mean to be misleading... this is the 3 models that are on the VPW website. Where the top one says buick i thought that they meant that would suit VN, but yes you should go for the bottom ones since they explicitly say VN-VP


YT-ST2013 GM 3.8 ECOTECH V6 & STD, Holden, Chev, Pontiac and Buick, 1.8:1 Ratio $529.95


YT-ST2017 VR-VS Series 1, 1.7:1 Ratio $529.95


YT-ST2016 VN-VP, 1.7:1 Ratio $529.95



blownvn - any thoughts on valve springs?

Crow cams do some nice valve springs for the V6 we have just fitted a set to the VN, I've got the PN somewhere but I'll have to dig it up.


Arrie: If you can get 1.8's to suit your engine then used them but 1.7's (they are actually 1.72) will give you a HP boost of around 10% at the rear wheels.